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...From the recent past.

Remember the Quagmire? You don't hear much about that anymore.

Perhaps it was killed by General Petraeus and the slander lavished upon him by Michael Moore was somewhat of a final harrah before the media moved on.

Remember Those Benchmarks?

A year ago, when neither the war nor political reconciliation was going well, the Bush administration reluctantly agreed to 18 benchmarks for judging progress in Iraq. And the Democratic Congress eagerly wrote the benchmarks into law, also requiring the administration to report back in July and September on whether the benchmarks were being met.

When the second benchmarks report was released last September, Democrats jumped on it. Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid said the report "shows the president's flawed escalation policy is not working." According to Democratic senator Joe Biden of Delaware, "all it does is point out the failure." Democratic senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island said the Iraqi government "is not making progress with respect to these benchmarks."

Now, the facts on the ground have changed dramatically, and so has progress on the benchmarks. Will Democrats acknowledge this? Or will they continue to claim the surge has failed and demand rapid withdrawal of our troops? So far, Democrats have reacted with silence.

"Facts are stubborn," Hillary Clinton said last month, "and I know it's sometimes hard to keep track of facts. But facts matter." Indeed they do. But with Democrats, the warning of former Harvard dean Henry Rosovsky may apply. "Never underestimate the difficulty," he said, "of changing false beliefs by facts."
 

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I have been watching a series on Vietnam on Nat Geo recently. If you substituted the word Iraq for Vietnam you would swear it was a current documentary.
 

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The upcoming election and the sucky economy has taken the forefront now and the American public has a very short attention span.

Don't worry though... once we stop wasting trillions of dollars in Iraq... we'll actually be able to afford some of those damned entitlements like Social Security and Medicare. wink:
 

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once we stop wasting trillions of dollars in Iraq... we'll actually be able to afford some of those damned entitlements like Social Security and Medicare.
Nope. We'll have to have fuel rationing and ramped up public transportation instead. When we leave Iraq, Iran and the Saudi's will have their little frackas next. The price of gas won't matter anymore, because it won't be available for most Americans on a regular basis.

Anyone who thinks we'll be getting out of Iraq if they vote for Obama also believes in cupid, Santa, the Easter bunny and tooth fairies.
 

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Looks like we'd better buddy up to Hugo Chavez then... :? :D

I mean why not? He's a freakin' saint compared to the Saudi Royal family. :eek:

I guess it's a damned good thing that MOST of our oil imports come from Canada and Mexico. Tup:

We could always invade and occupy them? clown:
 

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I guess it's a damned good thing that MOST of our oil imports come from Canada and Mexico.
Guess what? If oil supplies are disrupted in the ME, I don't care where we get our oil today. All bets are off when there isn't enough to go around.
 

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That would leave Webo the environmentalist in tears with 4 cars and a boat to feed. $100 says he will find a way to blame it on GW.
 

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Only 2 cars and a truck and NO... I wouldn't blame it ALL on GWB...

... just most of it! :D
 

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Hopefully the trend in Iraq holds and continues to improve. Imagine, if only for a moment, we would have gone in with the troops and equipment suggested :idea: ...Ah, the moment is gone.

Force the Iraqi government and people to stand up, start bringing more of the troops home now.
 

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"Force the Iraqi government and people to stand up, start bringing more of the troops home now."

Read up on S Vietnam and you will see the exact things were being said about that govt. Why anyone would want to repeat that history is beyond understanding.
 

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Theking said:
"Force the Iraqi government and people to stand up, start bringing more of the troops home now."

Read up on S Vietnam and you will see the exact things were being said about that govt. Why anyone would want to repeat that history is beyond understanding.
I know enough that I would not want that to happen. I know also we cannot leave completely for some time, if ever. I do believe the ultimate sacrifice of American soldiers would be for not if a full and complete withdraw were to happen without a stable government and military/police. I see this issue clearly and since my family has paid the ultimate price I would not want Josh’s death to be meaningless. I have enough unfiltered data (non-media) to know that our current level of troop engagement is a crutch for success. Much is wasted without any return at all. How do you make an Iraqi care about his or her country, their safety and that of their democracy? Many, quite sadly, do not care.

Sooner or later you better learn to walk without that crutch. Sooner or later the majority of Iraqi's must care enough to take their security into their own hands. As I said, force them to do so.

This is so much bigger than just getting out of Iraq. How do we help maintain the improving situation without continuing the detriment and harm to our armed forces and their families? When does the need of our own military and our own security outweigh that of the Iraqi's? How do you avoid the mistakes of the past and be prepared for the uncertainty that lies ahead? I don’t want to find out the hard way. Let’s hope we never repeat the history we’re making now.
 

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"Let’s hope we never repeat the history we’re making now"

Why? Is the world not better off without Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union wanting to trule the world? Seems to me we occupied Japan and Germany for quite some time and that worked out OK. We have been in Sk for 50 years thats working out pretty good. Even Vietnam has rolled around to our general way of thinking. We are better off with a world exposed to our way of freedom in the long run even if in the short run it is painful. A big problem is Americans want it now or are willing to take a drug to pretend it does not exhist. Long ago we lost the knowledge that anything of value comes from hard work and sacrifice.
 

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Not what I was driving at, TK. Not that you could tell... it was a pretty open statement. I agree with what you say, yes we are much better off. I prefer English as a primary language

The mistake is not being able to respond effectively to some other major conflict. Iran? I still don't think they're on the up and up. Do you? Do we just pack up and move out of Iraq and head to Tehran to remove Im-ina-dinna-jacket and get democracy rolling there too?

This war has taken it's toll on our Military men and women and equipment. Namely the Army and Marine Corps. This is not Desert Shield / Desert Storm, it is, for all intensive purposes, a long term occupation of a very large country with little to no help from our allies. (no malice intended SJ)

It may be a short run to you and history, but try asking the Marine on his 4th deployment. Try asking an AF wife who lost a husband and their daughter who will grow up with no father. Try asking them about "hard work and sacrifice".
 
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MAD.CAM.AL said:
Not what I was driving at, TK. Not that you could tell... it was a pretty open statement. I agree with what you say, yes we are much better off. I prefer English as a primary language

The mistake is not being able to respond effectively to some other major conflict. Iran? I still don't think they're on the up and up. Do you? Do we just pack up and move out of Iraq and head to Tehran to remove Im-ina-dinna-jacket and get democracy rolling there too?

This war has taken it's toll on our Military men and women and equipment. Namely the Army and Marine Corps. This is not Desert Shield / Desert Storm, it is, for all intensive purposes, a long term occupation of a very large country with little to no help from our allies. (no malice intended SJ)

It may be a short run to you and history, but try asking the Marine on his 4th deployment. Try asking an AF wife who lost a husband and their daughter who will grow up with no father. Try asking them about "hard work and sacrifice".
Well said!

Tup: clap: clap: clap:
 

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"The mistake is not being able to respond effectively to some other major conflict. Iran? I still don't think they're on the up and up. Do you? Do we just pack up and move out of Iraq and head to Tehran to remove Im-ina-dinna-jacket and get democracy rolling there too? "

They are related. We have the real estate they hoped to gain and a buffer between the Shia and the Sunnis. We have more military might than all of the standing armies of the world combined. If Iran blinked the wrong way we could cut off their supply lines and disable their forces in less than a week without putting a boot on the ground.

This war has taken it's toll on our Military men and women and equipment. Namely the Army and Marine Corps. This is not Desert Shield / Desert Storm, it is, for all intensive purposes, a long term occupation of a very large country with little to no help from our allies. (no malice intended SJ)

All wars do but they are professionals and the comitted ones will make the servie stronger in the long run.



It may be a short run to you and history, but try asking the Marine on his 4th deployment. Try asking an AF wife who lost a husband and their daughter who will grow up with no father. Try asking them about "hard work and sacrifice".

Sure its hard but they signed up for it and no one forced them into it they knew what they were getting into. I have a good friend that was divorced because of the strain of the separation. He feels he is well compensated for what he does and he loves it so much so that when the choice came down he chose a 4th deployment over his marriage.

It is the same story in every war.
 

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None taken MCA as you drew the line in the sand and apart from one push up North before the Surge began we have stayed down South. I know our special troops have been helping out all over Iraq.

Our troops are tired as they are constantly in battle, over here we are short of troops and the gov cannot do anything to make up the shortfall. If the troops are not serving in Iraq they are in Afghanistan. Luckily we are still operating a system of a six month deployment whereas your troops have to put in 15 months before they get a break back home.
 

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We have more military might than all of the standing armies of the world combined. If Iran blinked the wrong way we could cut off their supply lines and disable their forces in less than a week without putting a boot on the ground.
I totally agree, and we're fine as long as we don't need large numbers of boots on the ground. Let's wrap this one up and catch our breath.
 

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MAD.CAM.AL said:
We have more military might than all of the standing armies of the world combined. If Iran blinked the wrong way we could cut off their supply lines and disable their forces in less than a week without putting a boot on the ground.
I totally agree, and we're fine as long as we don't need large numbers of boots on the ground. Let's wrap this one up and catch our breath.
We're just going to recruit new boots and give them $40,000 for one enlistment so they can get out and buy a house. Unless we offer them another $60,000 to re-enlist.

Time for the "draft" discussion again.
 

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Unfortunately you are only the third largest army in the World. China and India both have larger armies than you do. Remember like us you have had big cut backs over the years since the Cold War.
 
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