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Discussion Starter #1
I was just wondering what people thought about what is happening to "The Cradle of Liberty Council" of the "Boy Scouts of America" in Philadelphia. Here is the link to the Article @ Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_Liberty_Council It seems that this particular council is being forced from the building that it built, renovated, and has resided in for upward of 100 years. The building was built, and renovated with private funds but is on a piece of property owned by the city and the Boy Scouts lease this property. As part of the "Non-Discrimination" policy of the city, the Scouts must vacate the premises, or pay $200,000 per year rent, because the Boy Scouts have decided that openly gay men are not allowed to be scoutmasters. Contrary to most of the media the policy does not prohibit homosexuals from being members just Scoutmasters. Here is the link to the official policy of "The Boy Scouts of America" http://old.scouting.org/media/press/2002/020206/
 

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OB, Jabba will probably chime in on this. He and I have had some long debates about the Scouts. As background, I was a Star Scout and Senior Patrol Leader. I really enjoyed my time in Scouting and recommend it to any young man who is looking to gain skills and confidence. However.........

If you are going to take money or value from the taxpaying public, you have got to live by the rules, including the rules that do not allow this kind of discrimination. My guess is that $200,000 per year is fair market value (I understand that this Council is in the downtown section of Philly). If my son was still involved in Scouting, I would have no issues with an openly gay Scoutmaster leading his troop. I wish the Scouts would either change their policy or refuse to gain any benefit from the public treasuary. Either one would make this a lot easier.
 

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Consider This:

A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind,
obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Each scout must also pledge that:
"On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight."

They strive to "Be Prepared"
and to "Do a Good Turn Daily"

All this just yanks the liberals chains...
They Hate scouts and scouting because
scouts and scouting stand for everything they despise.

Sadly, the liberals consider themselves morally superior. :(
 

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Bonzo said:
Consider This:

A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind,
obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Each scout must also pledge that:
"On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight."

They strive to "Be Prepared"
and to "Do a Good Turn Daily"

All this just yanks the liberals chains...
They Hate scouts and scouting because
scouts and scouting stand for everything they despise.

Sadly, the liberals consider themselves morally superior. :(
Bonzo, I consider myself left of center - most on this board would probably consider me a liberal. I do not hate Scouts and scouting. They do not stand for everything I despise. You, on the other hand......
 

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eddie said:
Bonzo, I consider myself left of center - most on this board would probably consider me a liberal. I do not hate Scouts and scouting. They do not stand for everything I despise. You, on the other hand......
"Yank My Chain" ??? (there, I completed your sentence.) :lol:



:cool: Draco Explorer :cool:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 

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Bonzo, not quite what I was thinking! wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sorry, accidentally posted this twice!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Eddie, I too was a scout, I made it as far as Life in rank before my troop (one of the original troops from "The Narrows Council") broke up due to lack of leadership. I loved my time as a scout, but as far as I can remember there was never any mention of any thing sexual of any kind, gay, strait, trans gendered, or other.
My fundamental issue with this is that the city only chose to act when the scouts banned "Openly Gay" scout masters, if the city was really worried about discrimination they would have gotten involved when they Boy Scouts excluded women. In my mind that makes this more of a "Gay Rights" issue than a discrimination issue. People claim that the policy of the scouts promotes intolerance, I don't agree with that, I feel that there is a fundamental difference between "Tolerance" and Acceptance" and the media, the Gay Rights lobbiests, and the far left fringe have done their level best to blur that line. That being said I am going to clarify that line as I see it. "Tolerance" dictates that I am not supposed to cause you undue harm, deny you a job, deny housing, or any other of life's necessities because your are different. "Acceptance" means that I am ok with you or your behavior and do not mind that it is openly displayed for every one to see, if that is what you choose to do.
The policy of the city government is supposed to be one of "Tolerance" what their policy is doing is actually forcing "Acceptance". That action alone is equally as discriminatory as any thing "The Boy Scouts of America" is doing and should therefore ,under the same rule, result in the eviction of the government or, payment of market value in rent back to the people of the city, the real owners of all of the publicly held properties.
 

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eddie,

I believe the problem liberals in general have with scouting is with...
1. doing his or her duty to God and his or her country (and)
2. keeping his or her self morally straight.

If you consider the basic law and pledge of the scouts posted above,
I would think that you would encourage the city, the ACLU, and others
to promote scouting instead of forcing them to enlist immorality and
to give them cheap rent in the building that they built and donated to the city.

It is one thing to tolerate immoral behavior but another thing to be forced
by the state (or city) to adopt it when it is contrary to what you stand for.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well said Bonzo! You also bring up another good point where the hell is the ACLU protecting the BSA's right to make their own rules regarding leadership?
 

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OB-1 said:
Well said Bonzo! You also bring up another good point where the hell is the ACLU protecting the BSA's right to make their own rules regarding leadership?
Click here: light:
clown:

 

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The link was a good laugh. Tup:

I was a Scout and all my grandkids are in the Scouts, Explorers and Brownies.

Over here the local gov give the Scouts funds to help them keep going.

Better that they are doing something useful than spending their time roaming the streets.

I bought a soccer kit to give away in South Africa again but when I decided not to go I donated it to the local Scout group and they were very happy to accept it.

The local hut is used every night Mon to Fri and they have things going on there most weekends.

Teach them right when they are young and we will see the benefits later in life.
 

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Proud of you Sir John. Sir Robert Baden-Powell would be too.
Too bad that an organization that has as its goal the creation of good citizens is the target and political football of some of the loonier segments of our society. The fact that those loony ones have their hand in our pockets is even more aggravating.
As eddie stated we have plowed this ground before and it is full of rocks. I just don't understand how one that poses as the idealist can philosophically justify the behavorial anomaly of homosexuality.
The matter is a personal choice for some folks. So be it. This is a free country after all. However, Forcing by legislation or fiat the priority of deviants over the norm is purest unadulterated Bull5hit.
I have some acquaintences that live that life style. The are bright intelligent well behaved folk.
What they do in their bedrooms is no ones business. AND is not, or should not be, a matter of political manipulation or notice. Too bad it doesn't stay that way.
If, however, you choose to advertise your choice and it is contrary to the rules of some organization. Stay away! Take care of your lizard and enjoy the gift of life. Simple.
 

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I posted this a couple of years ago in my anger at the ACLU. To me their motto and their actions are poles apart.

Guest Editorial â€" 1,125 Words May 25, 2005
Friends of Terrorists, Foes of Boy Scouts
By Thomas P. Cadmus
Here’s a riddle: How do you get the American Civil Liberties Union to stop defending terrorists? Tell the ACLU that the detainees are really Boy Scouts.
Sadly, I am only half joking. This is the same group, after all, that defends pedophiles in the North American Man Boy Love Association, yet sues U.S. servicemembers engaged in a war.
The latest outrage from the “America-does-nothing-right� crowd is a series of lawsuits against Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski and Col. Thomas Pappas. The March 1 news release, in which the ACLU announced the lawsuits, would be laughable if not for the serious impact it is already having on military operations. Among the alleged abuses committed by our troops against the peace-loving detainees is “degrading treatment� and “restraint in contorted and excruciating positions.� It would be easy to make a comparison to Western hostages who have been beheaded by Islamic terrorists, but we are, and should be, held to a higher standard. In fact, most military servicemembers and veterans were horrified by the photographs taken at Abu Ghraib prison. The military, however, is investigating these abuses and has court-martialed or nonjudicially punished those already determined to be responsible.

These lawsuits represent the latest salvo in a pattern of “lawfare� engaged by the ACLU and fellow litigant Human Rights First. These groups, along with the Center for Constitutional Rights and Veterans for Peace, have exploited the Freedom of Information Act by requiring the Pentagon to release documents to the tune of 15,000 pages per month. All of these documents need to be gathered and reviewed by intelligence personnel and other troops before public release. I suppose these intelligence specialists don’t have anything better to do, like maybe prevent the next 9/11 or keep our troops safe in Iraq and Afghanistan.
“The effects of Rumsfeld’s policies have been devastating both to America’s international reputation as a beacon of freedom and democracy, and to the hundreds, even thousands, of individuals who have suffered at the hands of U.S. forces,� said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero.
Thousands? Of the 50,000 detainees processed between September 2001 and August 2004, 300 allegations of abuse have been made. After 150 investigations, only 66 cases have been confirmedâ€" that’s a whopping 0.132 percent. Two-thirds of the 66 confirmed abuses occurred at the point of battle, not during the interrogation process.
Department of Defense policy forbids requiring a prisoner to stand more than four hours straight. Under this more than generous rule, nearly every waiter and waitress in the United States could claim “abuse through stress positions.� War zones are dangerous places and people do get hurt. A detainee bumping his head while being handcuffed and put in a
humvee should hardly be considered abuse, yet according to some it’s a war crime.
The United States “does not permit, tolerate or condone any such torture by its employees under any circumstances,� William Haynes, the Defense Department’s general counsel, said in a 2003 letter to Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.
Many war critics claim that the detainees are either entitled to due process in U.S. courts or Geneva Convention protections. I fail to see how foreign terrorists who have never set foot in the United States are being deprived of their “U.S. constitutional rights.� Yet some wish to micromanage military operations by judicial fiat at the instigation of the ACLU and other radical organizations.
The protections of Geneva did not come from one convention, but actually a series of meetings that occurred as far back as 1864. It is a body of laws passed piecemeal, most in 1949. It requires a clear distinction between combatants and civilians. For example, combatants must wear uniforms and carry their weapons openly during military operations. As the Society for Professional Journalists correctly states, “Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups â€" and thus endanger the civilian population â€" are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention.â€? Despite this, the U.S. military has given Geneva Convention protections to Iraqi soldiers who met the criteria. Unfortunately some who are released return to fight our soldiers again.
In April, the military released a comprehensive report citing 4,000 interrogations of Guantanamo detainees. According to the Los Angeles Times, “captives have described how Al Qaeda trained them to spread deadly poisons and at other times armed them with grenades
stuffed inside soda cans, bombs hidden in pagers and cellphones and wristwatches that could trigger remote control explosions on a 24-hour countdown.� It’s nice to know that while our intelligence officials are gathering information from detainees on chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, the ACLU would advise these terrorists to “lawyer up.�
Now back to the Scouts. The legal attacks on the Boy Scouts of America are similar to the ACLU’s hostility toward the military. Scouting is a valued experience sought by recruiters searching for candidates at the U.S. service academies. The Secretary of Defense and the Pentagon’s top lawyer are Eagle Scouts. Support for Scouts runs deep aboard U.S. military bases worldwide. Yet because the Boy Scouts of America does not share the ACLU’s secular, homosexual-rights agenda, activist judges are trying to destroy the organization.
Several recent court decisions, if allowed to stand, would prohibit the military from supporting the National Boy Scout Jamboree. The bonding that occurs between soldiers and Scouts as they camp, eat, hike, study conservation and work together instills values that benefit both military and civilian society. The Pentagon has already succumbed to ACLU pressure by resurrecting a long-forgotten policy to bar the military from officially sponsoring private groups, including Scout troops. Hundreds of troops, many of them overseas, now have to find new sponsors.
The American Legion will stand with the Boy Scouts all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. The ACLU has successfully used the courts to tear down a cross that was intended as a soldiers’ monument in California. Moreover, the ACLU is soaking taxpayers with its legal fees. The city of San Diego recently paid $940,000 in ACLU legal fees after the organization
chased the Boy Scouts out of Balboa Park. Nationally, taxpayers fork over millions to ACLU attorneys. To stop this greed, Congress must amend 42 U.S. Code, Section 1988 of the Civil Rights Act, which is being exploited by these radical lawyers.
We are not engaged in a fight over legal doctrine or constitutional interpretation. This is a war on values. It is a war The American Legion intends to win.
Prominently displayed on the ACLU’s official Web site is the phrase “Keep America Safe and Free.� Ironically, if America were to follow the ACLU’s lead, it would be neither.
-- 30 â€"
Thomas P. Cadmus is national commander of 2.7 million-member American Legion, the nation’s largest wartime veterans organization.
_______________________________________________________________________
Contact: Joe March, (317) 630-1253; cellular (317) 748-1926 or Ramona Joyce, (202) 263-2982; cellular, (202) 445-1161.
Note to editor: A high resolution photo of Commander Cadmus is available at The American Legion Internet website at http://www.legion.org.
 

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So much ground to plow, and as Jabba has said, it is truly full of rocks.

OB - Is it discrimination that the Boy Scouts do not accept girls? Probably in name only, certainly this is not an issue for me as the Girl Scouts are available. Back when Baden-Powell got the Scouts started, discrimination laws were virtually non-existent. I see no reason for the Boy Scouts to become the Coed Scouts. Tolerance and acceptance, it is a fine line. It appears that what may be an issue for you is the openly gay portion of this. You probably supported the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, eh? I don't speak for the ACLU, however, I believe they have no problem with the Scouts making the own rules, private organizations have the absolute right to make their own rules. When they get funds or value from the public however, things change.

Bonzo, you have put your finger on it for a lot of people. Homosexuality is considered immoral by some. Although the studies are not conclusive, I believe homosexuals are that way due to genetics, not choice. Certainly every credible study has shown that homosexuals are no more likely to be child molesters than heterosexuals. In fact, of those child molesters that do have adult sexual relationships, the overwhelming majority are hetero.

Rory, trust you to post a link from Fox News that is specious and not funny. There is some advantage to consistency!

Jabba, one of the great strengths of our Constitution is the inherent protection of the minority from the tyranny of the majority. You believe that homosexuality is a behavior choice, I do not. Certainly we seem homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom where you would think choice is not a factor. If the Scouts refuse to drink from the public trough then I have no problem with them making whatever rules they choose.

Again, I look at my time in the Scouts as one of the real values of my childhood. As someone who is left of center, I try to live my life to the tenets of the Scout Law. I embrace the principle that loves God and country. I also embrace the principles of the ACLU. So it goes.
 

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eddie said:
Certainly every credible study has shown that homosexuals are no more likely to be child molesters than heterosexuals. In fact, of those child molesters that do have adult sexual relationships, the overwhelming majority are hetero.
Eddie,

You're playing a 3 card Monty game with the numbers.... light:


MALE HOMOSEXUALS COMMIT A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF CHILD SEX ABUSE CASES


Homosexual apologists admit that some homosexuals sexually molest children, but they deny that homosexuals are more likely to commit such offenses. After all, they argue, the majority of child molestation cases are heterosexual in nature. While this is correct in terms of absolute numbers, this argument ignores the fact that homosexuals comprise only a very small percentage of the population.

The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls. To demonstrate this it is necessary to connect several statistics related to the problem of child sex abuse: 1) men are almost always the perpetrator; 2) up to one-third or more of child sex abuse cases are committed against boys; 3) less than three percent of the population are homosexuals. Thus, a tiny percentage of the population (homosexual men), commit one-third or more of the cases of child sexual molestation.

· Pedophiles are invariably males: Almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men.

· Significant numbers of victims are males: Up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys (as opposed to girls).

· The 10 percent fallacy: Studies indicate that, contrary to the inaccurate but widely accepted claims of sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population.

· Homosexuals are overrepresented in child sex offenses: Individuals from the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children. nuke: light:
 

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Don't confuse Eddie with facts BB. Give him another drink and he will work his way around them regardless.

Whats the difference between Boy Scouts , Girl Scouts ,Cub Scouts and Brownies besides the color of the uniform? wink:
I was rasied to think that Boy Scouts were half a **** at least. My nephew ( on the wifes side) made Eagle Scout a few years ago and I went to the ceremony and saw nothing that changed my opinion. wink:
 

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lol. All the scouts I have ever known were all, not half ****-sapiens.

Btw for any it might mean something to. Once I was an Eagle, a good old Eagle too, but now I've finished Eagling I don't know what to do. ....
I did work my ticket and I did earn my Woodbadge. One of the most profound episodes of my life.
 

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Hubby was in Sea Scouts. He learned his boating skills, marlinspike seamanship and other assorted stuff that has served him well for 40 years.

Just don't tie a sloppy knot around him.
 
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