Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Discussion in 'Fishing Politics - The WDFW / ODFW Discussion' started by Cowlitzfisherman, Dec 23, 2011.

  1. Cowlitzfisherman

    Cowlitzfisherman Active Member

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    If those same "genes" that benefit the wild fish are passed on to their unborn, can cloning do the same? If they can, how will that affect your sport?

    When will they make the first real cloned wild fish? What would our fisheries be managed like if and when they clone wild fish? Would there still be a need to remove the dams if they could clone wild fish? Yes, I already hear that the "cost" issue will be raised, but compare them to the cost of removing the endless amount of dams, what would those costs alone be and what would happen once they were removed (the dams)? . :eek:

    Is it already to damn late?

    Before BTBW, or his tag team chimes in and says that I am against wild fish, lets let the readers talk about there own views and opinions first.
    If you have a real valid opinion on this issue please state it, if you just want to throw a blow or two at me...pm me wink:

    Oh, and Merry Christmas to all Tup: Tup: Tup:

  2. fishinfoolz

    fishinfoolz New Member

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    With the marvels of science I doubt there is little they can't do. Many of the current restrictions on cloning and scientific research are self imposed as a society for ethical reasons. As times change and research advances, I foresee human cloning of organs and maybe in the future even people, but that will be long after I'm dead and gone.

    The costs of cloning and other processes like cryogenics are prohibitive and I doubt any reasonable person would think that spending the amount of money necessary to clone a wild fish would produce a significant enough ROI for serious consideration.
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    There's a huge very important diversity amongst the different individuals in wild populations and you can't clone that.
  4. fishinfoolz

    fishinfoolz New Member

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    Why not? If and when they get around to cloning people, would they have to account for the different races and ethnicities or would a clone simply be an exact duplicate of the original?

    Each system's fish could be cloned using the same process thereby creating clones from that system.
  5. DOWN

    DOWN Member

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    dumb idea...still would be a man made turd in my eyes. I like my fish/eggs not to be f'ed with. Tup:
  6. Salmo g.

    Salmo g. Active Member

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    Since a clone is an exact duplicate of its source, it wouldn't serve the purposes of wild stock management. Maybe some unforeseen breakthrough would change that, but for the foreseeable future we're better off to manage discreet hatchery and wild populations.

    Sg
  7. Cowlitzfisherman

    Cowlitzfisherman Active Member

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    Why so Salmo?

    If you wanted all fish in a basin to have the same traits that makes them return and survive for that basin/watershed needs, why wouldn't you want all of those same fish to have what they needed to survive in that river/or basin? Are you saying that every fish has to be different then its brothers/sisters are to survive in the same basin/river?

    Cloning is not a one shoe size fits all cure for sure, but one shoe size may work very well for just one basin/river needs

    What say you wink:
  8. Jerry Garcia

    Jerry Garcia New Member

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    Cloning won't do a bit of good if the offspring are raised in raceways.
  9. Cowlitzfisherman

    Cowlitzfisherman Active Member

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    Why would that be Jerry? What difference would it make if the fish was born with its needed traits to survive in a raceway or a pond? Once the fish leaves it river/raceway/or pond, it's all up to ocean survival at that point of time. Do you know something that others don’t know? wink:

    PS, how's them stones of yours doing? :eek:
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Didn't take Google very long to find it...(0.20 seconds) ;)

    NOAA - Salmon Hatchery Questions & Answers

    Example of Diversity Within and Among Populations



    Example of Diversity within populations

    Temperature and rainfall patterns vary from year to year. Some years the temperature and rainfall patterns may favor adults that spawn earlier than normal, while in other years conditions may favor those that spawn later. If all the fish in a population spawned at exactly the same time, the population would be vulnerable to environmental fluctuations that negatively impact a particular spawning period (early, late, or normal).

    Example of Diversity among populations

    In the Columbia River, chinook salmon have two major juvenile life history types–ocean-type and stream-type. Ocean-type fish migrate to sea in their first year, and typically spend weeks, or even months, in estuaries and nearshore marine environments. In contrast, stream-type fish spend a full year in fresh water before their migration, at which point they migrate rapidly to sea and spend little time in the estuary. In addition, ocean-type fish and stream-type fish use different parts of the ocean. Ocean-type fish tend to stay along the coast, whereas stream-type fish use the open ocean. If only one of these life-history types existed, Columbia River chinook salmon would be much less productive and more vulnerable to fluctuating environmental conditions.

    Sounds like it would take a lot of clones. wink:
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Over the years I've heard hatchery fish referred to "hatchery clones" or cookie cutters.
    Basically they are clones and there stems the problem.
  12. MPM

    MPM Member

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    I think there are two reasons cloning doesn't hold any special benefit regarding wild fish populations.

    First, if you clone a fish, you get an exact genetic duplicate of that fish. So, cloning a wild gets you one cloned set of genes, not a cloned set of the many, many genetic variants that make up a fish population. Because the genetic diversity of a wild fish population naturally selected over eons is one of the key benefits of a wild fish population (versus the significantly less diverse genetic makeup of man-selected hatchery populations), cloning gets you nothing unless you clone ever wild fish out there.

    Second, in terms of "traits" that we find desirable, I don't think it's entirely well-understood what traits are genetically linked, what traits are environment-linked, and what are a combo (that goes for humans or fish). My understanding is that many think the aggressiveness of wild fish is due, at least in part, to their learning behaviors in a natural environment instead of a cement pond/hatchery raceway.

    That said, I don't claim to be any sort of expert (although my wife used to be a genetic researcher).
  13. codliveroil

    codliveroil New Member

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    First off I don't believe they could clone every fish , So the idea could be to start a run again , then from there the run would gain diversity.,R realisticly I don't believe this could in any way mean they aRE planning to clone 80,000 frye . so the usual bickering should take reality into consideration ,











    i
  14. RRMP

    RRMP Active Member

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    I doubt there going to colon each individual fry. Make a couple hundred of this one, another couple hundred of that one over there... etc etc.
  15. fishinfoolz

    fishinfoolz New Member

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    Agreed. There is no reason, other than cost they could not select enough variety from the pool to preserve sufficient diversity. IMO.
  16. RRMP

    RRMP Active Member

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    True! I would like to say we see that while fishing the Columbia down low. Some fish don't fight worth a darn and then some flat out do every thing they can to get free. Wilds and hatcheries... although wilds seam to always out fight the hatchery fish down there. Fishing on several different runs it's hard to say.

    Maybe some day every one will be equipped with some kind of scaner to detect which fish is from where, and if allowed to harvest or not. :D

    The future... you got to love it!
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Disagree.
    There are other reasons other than cost.
    Man is incapable of selecting the right spawners at the hatcheries, never could, never will.
    This is something that the fish know or fight for in the wild.
    So how in the heck is man going to be able to pick out all the right fish to clone?
  18. Cowlitzfisherman

    Cowlitzfisherman Active Member

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    Just go to the Cowlitz hatchery, they clone some of the best fish runs in the state Tup:
    They been number one for more times then most can count :eek:
    Wasn't it you that just said...

    Tup:

    What other river produces more steelhead on the average :?:
  19. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I think the Cowlitz does a terrific job with the steel and especially the coho. Tup:
    I'm glad to see you point that out...that's more like it! Tup: Tup: Tup:

    clap:

    I just don't fish steel much anymore or springers because I put in my time during the summer & fall months when the weather is better and don't need the fish or the pain of freezing my arse off.

    I really am impressed with the Cowlitz hatchery coho stock as they are good sized fish, fight good, aggressive biters, eat great and they might just have a little bit of diversity in them as they are so spread out from September to March of the following year (realistically October through December) and the eggs & milt are taken from a fairly good size representation of the run.
    Their genes are also native to the Cowlitz and I don't ever refer to the Cowlitz coho as being clones or cookie cutters.
    On any given day you might catch them from a smaller 8# fish all the way up pushing 20#'s.
    I'll often times have a mix of fish from around 10 or 12#'s and some mid teens or even high teens.
    Therefore, I don't call them cookie cutters.
    And for the record...I love those things...don't hate 'em. ;)

    Back to the cloning idea or topic...realistically though, basically if you remove two wild fish from the wild and spawn them, they are very close to wild-wild or the real deal, unchanged naturally produced wild fish.
    So basically isn't that what they are...a cloned fish, just a lot cheaper?
    The main problem then goes back to the lack of diversity representing most of the individuals from the entire run.
  20. fishinfoolz

    fishinfoolz New Member

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    Disagree. See previous post.