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Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Cowlitzfisherman » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:31 pm

BornToBeWild wrote:Perhaps to explain it better...let's go to basic salmon biology 101 Q & A I discovered last night or the night before on the NOAA site.

5) Temporary relaxation during the culture phase of selection that otherwise would occur in the wild
Artificial mating disrupts natural patterns of sexual selection. In hatcheries, humans select the adult males and females to mate, not the salmon. Humans have no way of knowing which fish would make the best natural breeders. In addition, selection is relaxed up until the time when juveniles are released from the hatchery (because they don't face the same predation and foraging challenges as wild juvenile fish). Fish raised in hatchery environments face very different pressures than those raised in the wild.


Risks to Wild Populations from Hatchery Fish - Genetic Risks

I gotta get back to work...guy needs to be retired. :(


BTBW

Since everyone is being really civil to each other, let's continue do so. I have a few questions about your last post where you quoted this:

5) Temporary relaxation during the culture phase of selection that otherwise would occur in the wild
Artificial mating disrupts natural patterns of sexual selection. In hatcheries, humans select the adult males and females to mate, not the salmon. Humans have no way of knowing which fish would make the best natural breeders. In addition, selection is relaxed up until the time when juveniles are released from the hatchery (because they don't face the same predation and foraging challenges as wild juvenile fish). Fish raised in hatchery environments face very different pressures than those raised in the wild.


A)
humans select the adult males and females to mate, not the salmon. Humans have no way of knowing which fish would make the best natural breeders.


1) Well, fish have no way of knowing either! Have you ever set and watched fish spawn before? A hen comes in and picks her nest area, and she lays her eggs and then a male, any male, comes in and tries to fertilize her nest. Then another male make another attempt to do exactly the same thing, then a jack or in the case of steelhead, a resident trout jumps in as quick as lighting and does his thing! Tup: :o It's simply a matter of who gets there first! :o The hen doesn't pick "her man", its who get in there first and does his job. True, larger males will chase away smaller males, but those little inferior guys get their shot in! That is also why they use jacks in their brood stocks.

So how does the act of a human grabbing a fish out of lets say fifty or a hundred fish a day in a hatchery environment differ that much from more from what happens in the natural wild selection scheme that fish do?

B)
Humans have no way of knowing which fish would make the best natural breeders[/u][/b].

2) The about example is a perfect example that shows that fish don't either! It's how it works! First come…first served!

C)
In addition[/u], selection is relaxed up until the time when juveniles are released from the hatchery (because they don't face the same predation and foraging challenges as wild juvenile fish)



3) not really sure how that statement stands up in the real world of actual science.

"Selection" is a double edged sword. It can and does work both ways. In a hatchery environment, an entire run of fish can be either saved, or killed off. In a wild environment, an entire run of fish can also be eliminated. If you think that I am wrong, there are thousands of fish species that disappeared over time, and most of them were long before man had any effects on them. It's a dirty word, but I am going to say it anyways…evolution!
Species learn to "adapt" or evolution makes the adaptation for them.

It's Christmas Eve and I may have missed a couple things, but lets pick this up when everyone is done with Christmas.


Merry Christmas to all!
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Jerry Garcia » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:29 pm

Stones are gone until I can manufacture more. Recovering now from my second knee replacement (Sept 6, Dec 7), back to work on Tuesday. If the clones are raised in a raceway their reproductive fitness will be compromised and they will also compromise wild steelhead reproduction.
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby BornToBeWild » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:30 pm

fishinfoolz wrote: We'll probably just drink a few Gibson Martinis and call it a day...

Merry Christmas!


Why not...it's Christmas Eve! LOL
I won't go there however or I'd call it a week. :mrgreen:
Big lush anyway... :oops:

When you get back...I have a question for you.
Oh never mind...I'll just put it on the main board for all of us "bar-stool biologist". :mrgreen:
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Cowlitzfisherman » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:56 pm

Jerry Garcia wrote:Stones are gone until I can manufacture more. Recovering now from my second knee replacement (Sept 6, Dec 7), back to work on Tuesday. If the clones are raised in a raceway their reproductive fitness will be compromised and they will also compromise wild steelhead reproduction.



Glad to hear that you are doing better Jerry Tup:

What you say about them being raised in a raceway may be true, but it wouldn't be so if the cloned fish were then released as fed fry to learn how to survive on their own, just like a naturally reared wild fry learns to. They do not have to be reared in a hatchery pond, or race way! :o
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Jerry Garcia » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:30 am

Sounds like that would overwelm the carrying capacity of the stream. Returning wild fish don't all have the same DNA, so the fry wouldn't all have the exact same DNA.
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Cowlitzfisherman » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:10 pm

Jerry Garcia wrote:Sounds like that would overwelm the carrying capacity of the stream. Returning wild fish don't all have the same DNA, so the fry wouldn't all have the exact same DNA.


You're kidding right?

Can you name one river system that has ever been "overwhelmed" Jerry by its carrying capacity in this state? That would be our best dreams ever Jerry! :o :o :o

If the fry all have the "right DNA", what hell would be the difference?
Why do the wild fish guys always look for every excuse possible ? Tdown:

What don't you understand about the "straying factor of fish" when it comes to how fish spread themselves and their DNA around Jerry :?: :?: :?: :idea:
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Jerry Garcia » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:46 pm

I understand straying just fine. A river can only feed so many parr before they smolt. Not enough food equals subparr smolts.
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Cowlitzfisherman » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:11 pm

Jerry Garcia wrote:I understand straying just fine. A river can only feed so many parr before they smolt. Not enough food equals subparr smolts.



Again Jerry........

Can you name one river system that has ever been "overwhelmed" by Parr carrying capacity in this state? That would be our best dreams ever Jerry! Tup:

You will NOT win this debate my friend becuase science will not support you wink:
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Jerry Garcia » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:19 pm

The "science" supports you?
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Hairlipangler » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:05 pm

Never been a fan of "carrying capacity". Mostly a wild steelhead advocate/anti-hatchery escape route. :mrgreen: Look at the Tern issue. Nature has a way of limiting itself. I think New York and Capitol Hill are proof of that. wink:
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Cowlitzfisherman » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:22 am

Jerry Garcia wrote:The "science" supports you?


No, there is no science to support either position about cloning Jerry. Nor is there any science that I am aware of that shows that any of our rivers in Washington are over there carrying capacity, or even near capacity levels! :o In fact, wasn't it the WSC (your group) who has been crying about not allowing enough fish to spawn so that the rivers can reach full carrying capacity?
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Jerry Garcia » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Big difference between wild fish spawning and flooding the rivers with hatchery parr.
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby Cowlitzfisherman » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:50 pm

Jerry Garcia wrote:Big difference between wild fish spawning and flooding the rivers with hatchery parr.

Not if they are cloned from wild fish :lol: wink:
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Re: Can they clone fish to have the same instincts of wild fish?

Postby fishinfoolz » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 pm

Whoa. How would "Capacity" be effected by the origin of the species? Wouldn't each be supported equally as well, or poorly- by current conditions?
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