Is snagging sport fishing?

[Salmo g.]

CFM,

Thanks for always going "over the top" to still not make a point.

Never heard of Gink's rules before and wouldn't be surprised if most others haven't either. However, his rules do comport with the concept of fair chase, so they are probably useful for sport fishing tournaments or whatever reason he saw fit to write them up.

WDFW hasn't taken a survey about the meaning of most things, so the fact they haven't surveyed about snagging is irrelevant. They haven't taken a survey to see if most fishermen would like to have a sport gillnetting season either, or a sport dynamite season, etc., ad naseum.

Snagging is a lower, not lesser, social value. In case you didn't understand the "bar" of values, here's how it works: things that are more difficult and require greater skill and or patience are "higher" actions than things that are easier, require less skill and patience, which are "lower." Of course, in your lop-sided world it could be the inverse.

In certain areas, i.e., Skokomish River, Pullayup River, etc., you see more people trying to snag salmon than fair hook them because of the same things I described in my previous post: opportunity and personal values. Those two rivers, and some others, have large concentrations of salmon in a relatively small area, where they are EASY to snag. So people who embrace snagging as a personal value are attracted to the easy "fishing" in large numbers, so that is why snaggers outnumber fair chase anglers in those times and places. It hadn't occurred to me than you would find that hard to understand, or that it isn't obvious.

Lastly, maybe foolz has this one nailed. Fishing isn't a sport; there are no touchdowns or points scored.

Sg

[Cowlitzfisherman]

Lastly, maybe foolz has this one nailed. Fishing isn't a sport; there are no touchdowns or points scored.

Sg

Well, if you believe that then maybe you should stop looking down your nose at others who use different methods to harvest their fish

Why is it that one user group seems to think that their way is the only ethical way to catch a fish, especially food fish?

Is that a "NOAA ethic" that you are referring too?

[Salmo g.]

There are personal ethics, and there are community ethics. Within our larger community there is a distinct segment whose ethics include snagging salmon. I don't look down my nose at someone for having different ethics than I do. I do have a low opinion of those who flaunt the law by snagging when it is not legal to do so. And I really look down at those who find snagging salmon ethical for themselves but have the temerity to complain about treaty Indians or commercial fishermen who use gillnets, as that takes some really convoluted thinking, or more likely, no thinking at all.

NOAA nor any agency has no ethics unto itself. Agencies reflect the ethics of the communities they represent, which often are mixed, which is why agencies tend to have a hard time getting things straight, when the community they represent or are drawn from have mixed opinions and ethics. That's why we have regulations and policies, to sort this stuff out.

Sg

[RowVsWade]

Sport fishing is NOT a sport, it's fishing. Football, Baseball, Hockey etc is a sport. Curling, Water Ballet and Fishing are not sports...

Snagging? Not a good idea to legalize IMHO. Could you imagine all the swimming pin cushions laced with hooks, line and derelict gear...

Dooood----Welcome back.

[micropterus101]

Snagging is a lower, not lesser, social value. In case you didn't understand the "bar" of values, here's how it works: things that are more difficult and require greater skill and or patience are "higher" actions than things that are easier, require less skill and patience, which are "lower." Of course, in your lop-sided world it could be the inverse.


There are personal ethics, and there are community ethics. Within our larger community there is a distinct segment whose ethics include snagging salmon. I don't look down my nose at someone for having different ethics than I do. I do have a low opinion of those who flaunt the law by snagging when it is not legal to do so. And I really look down at those who find snagging salmon ethical for themselves but have the temerity to complain about treaty Indians or commercial fishermen who use gillnets, as that takes some really convoluted thinking, or more likely, no thinking at all.

NOAA nor any agency has no ethics unto itself. Agencies reflect the ethics of the communities they represent, which often are mixed, which is why agencies tend to have a hard time getting things straight, when the community they represent or are drawn from have mixed opinions and ethics. That's why we have regulations and policies, to sort this stuff out.

Sg

Convoluted thinking? By your reasoning commercial and tribal fishermen are very low on the social ladder. It doesnt take much skill to wrap a net around a school of fish, certainly less skill then hooking a chum in the ass with a single barbless hook and landing it with a fishing pole. In reality commercial and tribal fishermen are esteemed by the most powerful people in the world. What about natives of the amazon using rotenone in shallow pools with the jungle to gather fish. Are they really any less a member of society because of there fishing methods. I think there pretty damn smart. Your thinking is so small so confined to your own idealogy. In the big picture snagging fish doesnt mean your any less socially acceptable then anybody else. Socialogy and fishing methods are not related. Two people from a rich hood walk down along the river to do some bird watching and see somebody snag a salmon they are not thinking what a scrub lowlife beggabond . They see somebody catching a salmon, thats it!
The state patrol will raise speed limits if too many people are speeding on certain stretches of road. Those people were breaking the law until the state patrol raised the limit. Now there legal going the same speed. Are they better people now just because the government made it legal?

[micropterus101]

CFM,

In certain areas, i.e., Skokomish River, Pullayup River, etc., you see more people trying to snag salmon than fair hook them because of the same things I described in my previous post: opportunity and personal values. Those two rivers, and some others, have large concentrations of salmon in a relatively small area, where they are EASY to snag. So people who embrace snagging as a personal value are attracted to the easy "fishing" in large numbers, so that is why snaggers outnumber fair chase anglers in those times and places. It hadn't occurred to me than you would find that hard to understand, or that it isn't obvious.

Lastly, maybe foolz has this one nailed. Fishing isn't a sport; there are no touchdowns or points scored.

Sg

Those certain areas are the only game in town thanks to the very poor management of the salmon in this state. All these people complaining about hatcheries and how we need to get rid of them to bring the fish back. Just look at the hood canal system. There is the skok, Hoodsport, and the killacene. Why? Hatcheries. There are several other rivers on the canal that are pristine with jack and crap in them. Why? Indians wiped them out and there are no hatcheries on them, so wheres the fish? Smarty pants. Take the hatcheries away the natives will come back? ok again wheres the damn fish in the hamma the dosi the lilly, the duck etc.

So why again is there snagging in the skok? Poor fish management! Its the only game in town. lets throw 2000 people together on a small river and see what happens duh.

[streamer]

So why again is there snagging in the skok? Poor fish management! Its the only game in town. lets throw 2000 people together on a small river and see what happens duh.

You're still completely missing the boat on this one...

And using the excuse of mismanagement for justification and reasoning behind "anglers" wanting to snag on rivers like the "Skok" and Puyallup is asinine.

To say there are no other games in town during that time of year is as equally of a pathetic thing to say. I can think of over a dozen rivers within an hour's drive of Olympia that have opportunities for summer steelhead. Plus, there are countless numbers of lakes and numerous saltwater opportunities during the PEAK of the saltwater season.

The opportunities to harvest fish are there. People that fish the Skok that time of year just don't give a rat's a$$ and prefer blatant disregard for the law and snagging fish, regardless of whether it's either ethically and or legally sound.

It wouldn't matter if there was 10,000 kings returning to the Skok or 1,000,000 kings returning to all the hood canal streams. The fact of the matter is that people would continue to snag where large numbers of fish are present, anyway.

[fishinfoolz]

Dooood----Welcome back.

Thanks! And---Watch out!

[micropterus101]

You're still completely missing the boat on this one...

And using the excuse of mismanagement for justification and reasoning behind "anglers" wanting to snag on rivers like the "Skok" and Puyallup is asinine.

To say there are no other games in town during that time of year is as equally of a pathetic thing to say. I can think of over a dozen rivers within an hour's drive of Olympia that have opportunities for summer steelhead. Plus, there are countless numbers of lakes and numerous saltwater opportunities during the PEAK of the saltwater season.

The opportunities to harvest fish are there. People that fish the Skok that time of year just don't give a rat's a$$ and prefer blatant disregard for the law and snagging fish, regardless of whether it's either ethically and or legally sound.

It wouldn't matter if there was 10,000 kings returning to the Skok or 1,000,000 kings returning to all the hood canal streams. The fact of the matter is that people would continue to snag where large numbers of fish are present, anyway.

Asinine? really? People were fishing way before you or I were born. People think so short term these days. It is a fact that there were more fish before the boldt decision yet snagging was not an issue back then it didnt even cross a fishermens mind, there was no reason for it. At least not according to the my grandfather and great grandfather along with other wise men of todays messed up obamanation. Fish were plentiful and amost all the rivers were open with liberal limits along with the entire sound. People were not condensed and micro managed in a select few fishing opportunitty areas as they are today with a gazillion rules.


Like it or not poor management has everything to do with the huge number of snaggers out there today.

[streamer]

micropterus101,

You're trying to connect two independent variables to draw an untrue conclusion. You can't necessarily prove that if there are more fish people will become further law-abiding. The two aren't connected.

Morality seems to have changed since the Boldt decision as well as the numbers of fish. But you can't tie together the two. A lot of people just don't give a rat's a$$ about doing what is ethical and legal... and that is manifested through illegal fishing methods... and regardless of how many fish are present... it won't change anything.

It shouldn't be that hard to see.


Matt

[micropterus101]

micropterus101,

You're trying to connect two independent variables to draw an untrue conclusion. You can't necessarily prove that if there are more fish people will become further law-abiding. The two aren't connected.

Morality seems to have changed since the Boldt decision as well as the numbers of fish. But you can't tie together the two. A lot of people just don't give a rat's a$$ about doing what is ethical and legal... and that is manifested through illegal fishing methods... and regardless of how many fish are present... it won't change anything.

It shouldn't be that hard to see.


Matt

Matt,

Your right I cant prove that if there was more fish people would choose to entice fish rather then force feed them. I can however guess that if there were 3 times as many rivers open as there is now people would not be so crowded onto a select few rivers and the fish would be more likely to bite which would encourage more people to learn.

[streamer]

Dude... you STILL aren't getting it.

Like I said earlier, there are plenty of opportunities to get fish to bite, and plenty of people who have shown that they would still rather floss and snag fish.

I recall a particular morning earlier this fall on the lower Skok. At the 100 man hole on the lower river was an extremely good egg bite, during which every single person fishing with eggs at least got their 1 fish and either released and continued fishing or bonked and went home.

If you aren't familiar with what is typical for that area I'll tell you. The top end of the run is usually dominated by bobber/bait fishermen and the lower stretch is infested with flossers and snaggers. During this awesome egg bite, I didn't see 1 flosser/snagger show any interest in what was going on above them. Instead, they continued engaging in their illegal activities downstream of the good fishing.

Plain and simply put, the river puts out a lot of fish, and in return it will also draw out the scum of the earth that don't care if they pull in their fish head first, sideways, or ass end first.


Matt

[Jer]

I've seen that deal at that hole. Can you honestly say some of those "egg" fish weren't flossed? Possibly the bait drifted into an open mouth? Ever think that maybe some people don't have eggs? Maybe that's why they toss corkies, aka flosser/snagger gear? I like the reference to illegal activities too LOL Come on, man. And to be honest, does it matter? I've seen those same "bait" guys keep fishing after they retained their king too. Or run up and hide it in their vehicle, come back and keep on tossing eggs under their bobber. It won't end...no matter how much bitching takes place. Keep at it tho

[micropterus101]

Dude... you STILL aren't getting it.

Like I said earlier, there are plenty of opportunities to get fish to bite, and plenty of people who have shown that they would still rather floss and snag fish.

I recall a particular morning earlier this fall on the lower Skok. At the 100 man hole on the lower river was an extremely good egg bite, during which every single person fishing with eggs at least got their 1 fish and either released and continued fishing or bonked and went home.

If you aren't familiar with what is typical for that area I'll tell you. The top end of the run is usually dominated by bobber/bait fishermen and the lower stretch is infested with flossers and snaggers. During this awesome egg bite, I didn't see 1 flosser/snagger show any interest in what was going on above them. Instead, they continued engaging in their illegal activities downstream of the good fishing.

Plain and simply put, the river puts out a lot of fish, and in return it will also draw out the scum of the earth that don't care if they pull in their fish head first, sideways, or ass end first.


Matt

Matt I do get what your saying, and I have fished the skok since the limit was three kings and there was only a dozen or so people fishing there for them. I used eggs and spoons exclusivly there for years. I am very familiar with the egg fishery in the tidal waters. The fish take eggs very well until about two hours after daylight after tht there are just two many people there and the fish become spooked. every year there are more people fishing eggs. So yes the rippers are taking note and some are changing but for that morning they cant change can they? they dont have eggs and dont know how to fish them. Honestly I dont want two thousand people there at daylight anyways do you?